Thursday, September 18, 2008
Is Utopia really a utopia?
More says that during Raphael's narrative he thought of "various objections," although he doesn't voice them. He goes on to say that he found some of the laws and customs "perfectly ridiculous." Which, if any, did you find "perfectly ridiculous?" Why? Likewise, if you didn't find them ridiculous, explain that as well.
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one of the customs that i found absurd was the clothing and how they had very limited pieces. a pair of worn leather overalls and when they go out in public they throw over a linen cloak over that is what the wardrobe of the citizens have. They are trying to cover the indivdualism in each person which is impossible to do. do they all look alike? Besides i would think if they wore the same thing everyday then the items would become more worn out and then they would have to produce more.
I also wasnt a big fan of if a person in a household was to do a different trade from what the parents specialize in then they were just shipped off to another family who happened to do that trade. How void of emotions are you towards your kids if you can just let them go to another family? I dont think i could let my kids do that.
The one law that i did not find ridiculous was that of premarital intercourse. I think my favorite part is that the man and woman that are in charge of the household where it happens are publicly disgraced for not doing their jobs properly.... Genius idea. Maybe if we had that law around, less pregnancies...less disease... hmmm just a thought
I think the concept behind a state like Utopia is a good one. Yeah, it’s a little terrifying but being equal, of never having to want for anything, is a nice idea. In fact, if we could get rid of the whole big brother thing but still have equality, I’d probably sign up. I’m ok wearing bag clothes, really; it lessens prep time in the morning and gives me more time to sleep. I’m ok marrying for life. I’m ok learning self defense and working out in the fields for two years. And I’m FOR SURE ok with the 6 hour work day a la France. The idea of somebody watching me 24/7 is MAJORLY CREAPY but if we could get rid of that, I’d be down.
Of course I know that this would never really happen and it goes against human nature so I shouldn’t hold my breath but still… some of the goods out way the bad. Especially since there’s already so much bad in the world, sometimes I would be ok to get rid of some of the stimulants to pretend the world is a fluttery happy go lucky place. Like, how the Truman Show was brought up in class. It really asks the question, are we better off seeing the world or is ignorance really bliss?
I don't know.
Well, I'm still kind of absorbing the whole premise. There are definitely aspects of Utopia that seem to get it exactly right...simple law code, the division of labor, religious tolerance, etc. However, I find the complete lack of privacy or personal expression extremely troubling, and probably not worth it in the end.
That being said, most of the customs Raphael describes seem to make sense from a Utopian perspective. The only one I would call "utterly ridiculous" is the business about couples inspecting each other naked before marriage. For a people who are supposed to be beyond caring about outward appearance, what exactly does that inspection afford? Wouldn't it be more in line with their belief system to hold some kind of interrogation?
I was also extremely troubled by the treatment of women. While they are treated as equals in some respects, such as labor or military service, in many others they are expected to submit to their husbands just as children submit to their parents. Raphael even states at one point that husbands punish their wives, and parents punish their kids, but he never says who gets to punish the husbands.....
Thomas More's "Utopia" gave me some insight on a so-called perfect world. No matter how good things seem to be, there would be plenty of sacrifices made. In Utopia, one would have to give up their individuality and freedom. There would be no time to act upon any sense of adventure or creativity. Everything just seems so bland. I like some things like the lack of poverty, low crime rate, and high productivity, but I don't like the every day routine and lack of excitement. If I were to try to live in this world I would die of boredom and I would be stripped of any sense of purpose. How can someone do the same thing day after day without getting bored and wanting to break out of the mold? At first it seems like one would get their sense of purpose through labor and not being idle, but what more is there to live for rather than production?
I feel like I have gone off on a tangent, so I will make a quick list of the laws and customs that I thought were somewhat sensible, if they could be carried out properly and not quite to the extreme.
1.Religious tolerance-because someone's faith should not interfere with their relationships if others do not agree with their religion
2.Value of natural gifts such as beauty, strength and agility-the Utopians do not despise their appearance nor do they try to change things to make others accept them (Americans could follow this example)
3.putting little value on material things-in this case, how much bling you have does not equal your worth
4.how they treat death and burials-i just find the beliefs on the manner of death interesting and i think burial vs. cremation based on the manner of death is...different. I wouldn't necessarily say we should do this, but I find the custom...interesting.
Some things that I do not find reasonable:
1.how they treat war-sending off mercenaries like pawns to fight a war that was none of their concern
2.clothing-somehow wearing the same stuff all the time seems irrationally boring and represents bad hygiene. Who wants to look homeless all the time, even when nobody is homeless in Utopia?
3.not punishing the priests for any wrongdoing-i understand the reason behind this, but who's to say that they will necessarily be punished in the afterlife? I think everyone should suffer the consequences for any wrongdoing. By letting these priests wait for judgment from the divine, some of them may feel (and know) that they are getting away with their crime at least until they finally exit this life
Like an honorable man who, although sometimes subjective, longs to hear the the differing opinions of another man, I think it's important that More keeps his thoughts to himself. There are MANY aspects of the Utopian society that are appealing; for instance, geographical location, increased productivity, and no real class distinctions are all thoughts that have perhaps run through some of our minds. However, to get to such a state, we (ourselves) would have to surrender some of the liberties that we take for granted and have become accustomed to having. Therefore, some of the laws and customs in Utopia can certainly be seen as ridiculous.
The first one that comes to mind is Utopia's resistance to enter into war--and if they do, they 'hire out' their foot soldiers. I don't know if it's just me, but that seems like a contradictory and hypocritical method. So you don't like to go to war, but since your neighbors do, you're willing to pay them to make the sacrifice for you? Pretty ethical, right?
Another aspect of the ridiculous society that would make me uncomfortable is the fact that there really is no sense of privacy. There is an adbundant communal feeling throughout the society, and that social blanket would make me feel like someone is always watching.
In Utopia, you might have food, water, and shelter provided for you, but the sacrifices given in return for that security are some that I would not be willing to give.
I really think that most of the laws of Utopia sound "perfectly ridiculous." They might appear like a good thing on the surface, but after thinking about the recurring effects, I don't think that any of the laws would be worth implementing into our society. Everything is supposedly done for the "common good of the people" but I think that the laws really are in place for governmental control. This type of control really does away with any form of individuality. Competition of all kinds is also totally eliminated. There is not a way to get rewarded more for working harder than others, you just receive the same amount of clothing, food, housing, etc. If a person exhibits special academic talent they are moved into a "higher" group of scholars; however, there is really no other outlet for individual talents (except for gardening....cuz you know everyone loves doing that). But certain people with skills in ornamental iron work, artistic talent, dance talent, etc. is unable to put their abilities on display. These laws result in greater control rather than greater freedoms.
martin,
i definately agree with your views on Utopia and war. it's really something i thought of as odd. i mean, to get into a fight with some one and then go "oh, no! i'm not going to fight you. fight my peons!" seems really ridiculous not to mention completely hypocritical. utopia judged others for fighting yet, they allow themselves to get into fight and then not fight them? i makes me think of them as that stereotypical 2nd grade bullies.
Claudia,
I liked your comments about citizens of Utopia lacking a sense of purpose in their life. That is exactly what all the regulations are made to do. No one should be too far out of the ordinary or it just throws everything off. I also agree with your ideas on religious tolerance as well as putting more value on natural gifts and less value on material possessions. Americans (and other people as well) could definitely use a little more of this in their life. Since when did money decide how good a person is? I think that it should be people's gifts, talents, and relationships with others that should determine a person's worth. Not their bank account. Anyways, moving on. I don't honestly remember how they treat death and burials at this moment so I have no comment for that one. And, once again, I also agree with you that their laws concerning war, clothing, and lack of punishment for priests are all very unreasonable.
Jamie, I think that the necessary inspection meshes just well with their ridiculousness. Now don't get me wrong, I think it’s pretty absurd that it IS a Utopian mandate, but at the same time, I don't believe that it's that surprising. Relative to all other ridiculous aspects of their society, it seems like this one isn't one of the ones that are blown way out of proportion.
So they want to be sure that no one has been whoring around...good for them! If I was Utopian, I'd want to be sure that I had a pure partner.
Claudia,
I think you bring up a nice point when you mention that Utopians always value their natural gifts, appearance, etc. At first glance, it doesn't seem very logical that people in such a communist society would celebrate their individual gifts and talents...but the text seems to be saying exactly that. Perhaps since nearly every aspect of their lives are the same, they delight in finding something that sets them apart. Ironic when you consider a place like L.A., where so many people who are free to be individuals seek to look and act just like everyone else!
i think utopia might just be cool place to live, all societies' need rules. now some may not agree with the rule because we are looking at them through a frame of mind that didn't exist during more's time. but if you think about it this was a effeceint society. they made everything they needed and everyone worked for the suvival of all. no one was above his neighbor, and no one wanted for anything. the idea of everything being uniform was also a good idea no animosity over something someone else has that you can't get, that kept crime down and a happy society.
erin
you make some good points but are you looking at utopia thru our time frame if so no it wouldn't make sense. but at the time he wrote this those rules would have been great for a society. there would be no need to slack off your duties because there would be examples of slacking every one would carry the end of the bargin because it meant survival.
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